Interview with Leon Tabory

R: Fast forward from the beginning.

What do you mean, the beginning?

R: Born in Lithuania.

Llithuania.

R: I don’t even know where it is.

Ah. You know, one of the things, for example, that I
feel has prepared me for the way I’ve decided to
participate here is that I have seen a number of worlds
that were pretty well constructed worlds and that’s how
it was, suddenly fall apart or torn apart, and the
world’s a different world, it’s not what–. What I’m
telling you is, I grew up in Lithuania in a very
orthodox Jewish family. They were comfortable people,
they had worked hard and took care of business and made
the business work. They had a factory, a couple of
houses, one * was working in a bank, and they were
pretty well together people. But life was always with
God’s will in mind, you know, that was their main
prerogative, always. I mean, Grandpa was most most that
way. He had a beard and he was going to synagogue three
times a day and the house was full of his Talmudic
books or these cows in the pasture would always,
because they *** for the nation I guess is the people
who could give the ** and were willing and so this was
a house like this and that’s where I grew up. There was
just no question in my mind that God was described by
the Jewish people and we were the favorite sons and
daughters, on down to Abraham and the land of milk and
honey and ** these were the kinds of things. We were
exiled from that but come back and — I was a little
kid, I mean maybe 10 or 11 years old, and I would go
with my Grandpa to the services. My second home was the
synagogue, you know, as a little kid.
And it was understood that all these people around us
who don’t have much and who will, they don’t (destroy
me), it’s because they are lazy and they drink too
much. If they were like us, stay sober and work hard
and don’t get drunk, they’d have something too. And I
thoroughly believed it. They were the nicest people I
could think of, you know, like *** dirty workers about,
working in the factories with them. They cared about
them. They were like family in so many ways. Sick or
something, they’d come knocking on your door in the
house and they were treated as — The family liked to
think they were treating them as family. But I didn’t
think of it then. But then the Russians came in. And I
was by that time going to Yeshiva, I was going to study
and the Talmudic ** I was doing that but then at that
time ****. Money was not an issue ever for them, but
when they sent me to Delsht(?) and Yeshiva as a kid, I
had to eat what they called (Teg Days?) in different
tunnels in the town. And this is where they set it up.
It was Yeshiva, it was kids, they were studying all day
and the different days there were different people in
the community who ***** It’s a matter of opinion,
because I had to go there too. I’ll tell you, **** like
you’re working ** some of these people didn’t have that
much food themselves, but they were some kind of
(Israel) family or something. This was their charity,
their thing. Anyway, so I went through all that. That
impressed me, because they just trained ** what it was
about, it was how everybody lived and I just did that
because **** Another thing that impressed me about them
is that Friday night, it used to be like — we have
homeless people here — they weren’t homeless but
transients kind of, and they were either Shul Friday
evening for the Sabbath etc., and some of the people
who could afford it, or whatever, would take them home
for the Sabbath meal. Every Friday they had a couple of
people who were somewhat — they looked like, they
seemed like, they might have been the homeless
transients. They’d go at the table with everyone just
as if they were part of the family. They were treated
with total respect and it wasn’t something to eat * in
the back door or anything. That has always impressed
me. I just knew that they were just good people. They
really do what they can and they’re capable and they
work hard. They didn’t have a lot but they also want to
help others, and * others, and I knew that to do the
right thing in God you’re going through this thing
here, you’re going to school and you’re going to
graduate and you’re going to ***** Okay, so they set
you up this way. And so naturally I believed — I mean,
not totally totally. I remember I just wasn’t sure of
the — they had the long whatever, the ******* really
that much worry, but God disapproving of singing and
prayers that were a little bit (proud?) — but you
know, it was something in mind, though, you know.
Anyhow — and after all that, the Russians came. And
suddenly this whole world is no longer functioning.
That’s when I stopped going to the Yeshiva **** There
was Jews they were ***** I said Hey why is it ** one
kid warrant, gets everything, another kid is warrant
and doesn’t have a chance at nothing. **** they don’t
want you to think. ** They were just exploiting little
people, you know ****** the people maybe cared for and
helped if they needed a doctor or something, but they
weren’t making a good living working. *** Suddenly that
world was no longer the only real world that these, the
way it really is *** say Well, everybody should be
taken care of. Everybody believed that — They had this
slogan, “From everybody according to their ability and
to everybody according to their needs.” And yeah, I
think it still looks to me like not so wrong in
approach, we are just living in a world that doesn’t
allow that way. It’s not because it’s not a healthy
way. It may actually be that people would be a lot
happier if *** — and so that started to raise some big
questions about — and then I saw that world fall
apart.

That was interesting. I don’t know if I fast forward,
but the things that have impressed me most, there were
two things, and I have written stories about that
already, in my biographical stories. Once we had a
Russian officer stationed in our house because in
really nice homes they requisitioned rooms for their
officers and staff. It was a young Russian, handsome
guy, always smiling and friendly and always, you know,
he had an expression, “Nacht **” means “We have
everything.” *** He was a hero from the Finnish war.
The Finnish war was just shortly before that, and he
got medals from the Finnish war. So he was just a young
man, this medaled officer in the army. He was a man of
our times, an elite, whatever. Then ** came out of his
room one night and his gown, his whatever, was on fire.
He was drinking, I guess, I didn’t understand it all
that much, but he had left a burning cigarette or
something and it caught fire, and he woke up and it’s
on fire. My family awoke, they were scared immediately,
and since is was a Russian officer, he’s the occupying
army officer, they strugggled whatever on — wanted to
call the army doctor, so he went to his knees and his
face was burning with fire and he was ** pleading with
them *** “Don’t call the doctor. Please don’t call the
doctor. Do you have a doctor that you know of? Don’t
go, don’t tell them, no, please” ***** It was actually
a brave act to do that, because–. But anyway, they
didn’t tell, and so all of a sudden everything changed.
*** He’s a hero from the war, but he has his act
completely right, he’s (30 years older?). He is watched
all the time. He has a big smile and a good *** for the
system, but they don’t respect him either too much. If
he does any misdeed or something, like not showing the
proper ** to the population, he’s anti propaganda you
might say, that would be ***** and it turned out that
he lives in fear all the time, ** he makes sure that
he’s just doing everything **** That was interesting.
That was very interesting. So that’s one thing that
started to –.

But the other thing that was even more * was * took the
Russians, they * to Lithuania with an agreement with
the Nazis, the Germans. They wanted to attack Poland
and they were afraid that the Russians might interfere,
so they made a deal with them. You go in the Baltic and
we to into Poland. We give you — and they gave them a
bone (or bonus?) for a while. And that’s how they got
to Lithuania. And so they stepped up their army post
and they were, like their officers and stations, they
were propagandizing. They were propagandizing a lot.
You know, “Your worries are over, never a rainy day,
you’ll always be taken care of …” And then, they
started to complain because the old anti-communist
officials, especially in the police department, were
not friendly to them and they didn’t feel safe with
them and so they wanted more people they can trust
better, and so that was their first move, because they
replaced a lot of the old police with their police ***
Then, one day it turned out the delegation from
Lithuania, and at the same time from Latvia and
Estonia, somehow these three countries where they had
their *** decided at the same time to send delegates to
Moscow to say, “Please take us into the union. We want
to join the Soviet Union,” and the Soviet Union
graciously accepted this offer and now we are going to
have elections to elect two people to go the Soviet,
Moscow ** to represent Lithuania. There were elections.

I was a young kid in school and I remember we used to
gather together and all fly little flags and sing and
all this and we have these political rallies. I was in
one of those, I remember those days * we’d sing the
songs and clap and do all these things for the *** The
two people that they had selected to be elected were
two people who were heroes because they were communists
when communism was outlawed in Lithuania before the
Russians came. For years. And they were dedicated for
the people and all these other things *** Halfway
through the election, they discovered that both of
these were not — they were FBI spies from Lithuania
**** They were both elected ** all these wonderful
great stories about them **** now it turns out they
were secret spies. So they shot them and there were now
two new people to be elected to be representatives
because they weren’t elected — it was during this
election campaign that all that happened. And so that
was an eye opener. Hey, I always thought, you know,
Grandpa ***now it’s time to light a candle or say his
****** and all this and now this new order. And it’s
not **** So that was an eye opener by that time. In a
certain way I think *** wait a minute, ***** used to
tell me and I had a lot of questions about the secret
army and ***** there’s couple worlds away come and gone
and so this one may too, so nothing’s permanent.
And then there were ** and ** came and that world was
startling. So this is part of my training, it’s part of
the way I look at the world and see. Naturally I saw,
for example, my Grandpa and the uncles and — they
worked too hard. They really worked very hard. They
were totally committed to what they were doing. They
were manufacturing and improving and ** the operation.

This was their life, working hard, working like * they
found something to exploit, *** cash cow. But yet when
the Russians came they started to say it’s all okay, **
exploit the parasites and *** not the way it was ***
I came away from it mostly with a thing that people,
you get to know them a little bit as people, you deal
with them as people, and it’s one way, one thing
happens in life and then you have a *** about those
people and people get so hung up in that, they use the
extractions and protections *** in fact it comes *
naturally to dehumanize those people who don’t fit in
and demonize ** — all of this I take with a grain of
salt.

Danny went to Israel. I was in the camps. Right next to
me was, where they left me to die in the concentration
camps, his name was Darka Shiantri. Darka Shiantri was
from my town and he was a couple years older than I,
not much. And I still have a picture in mind *** Get
down *! Get down *! Get down *! *** fired. He said ***
You’ll be redeemed with fire and blood. **** It’s like
as if he got infected. This guy is only good for the
next world, ** they actually believed that, you know,
and so they were going to prevail, but — and so that
turned me off from that direction. I said, Well, I see
another movement, and just accept the past, the ** that
you have experienced in the past is what is real and
you got to bring all that back and just, the total
picture was totally right or glorious, it was one real
way for me to come back to it and you feel guilty if
you don’t.

R: And this is the change where you left home and
arrived in the camp?

Change?

R: Yeah, suddenly we’re in the camp, so —

I was in the camp with my uncle. One uncle and I were
together to the very end.

R: So how did you get into the camp? What’s the
sequence?

The sequence? First, a moonlit night, it was a night
not too long after the Germans took over and kicked the
Russians out. Came in, nobody was sure it wasn’t going
to happen that way, we had to deal with it. In fact at
the time they were still looking for a, maybe a German
officer we want to requisition ** be a little more
protected and ** The other thing was, the factory,
there wasn’t anybody who knew how to run the factory,
and when the Russians were there, I decided this is
maybe (why we weren’t sent to?) Siberia. Because they
had to have somebody to run the factory. And also the
workers institutions and well, this way doesn’t make
sense but they said ****** whatever, but the real
reason was they wanted to maintain the factory and keep
working and they didn’t have people *** And under
Communism they had already appointed one of their
people that my uncles were supposed to train him to
take over the management and until then they would let
(us stay) to run the factories.

R: Other people had disappeared to Siberia.

Yes. They came off the — they called it, I forget,
then actually they had a big freight train at the
station and they already collected up all the wealthy
people and the ** other people, *** and it took them
three days to haul the people off into this freight
train and they then shipped them off to Siberia. And
now some of those survived there in that kind of area,
by that time. But our family wasn’t touched because
they were needed to run the factory **** And then when
the Germans came, the Germans did it too. My uncle was
still working the factory, so there was always hoping
that maybe there would be a little more safety in this
corner, you know, they need people. But then one night
they came in and they rounded up all the men, and many
of the kids too, boys, and took us down in the street
and put us in jail. I was in jail there with one of my
uncles. My sister ** younger, always skips along **
whatever, and she went to the, whatever, German office
that they had the delegations to run the community or
whatever, and she got me released from there. But it
was too late for my uncle. He was already taken out and
— when they pulled ** we were together and they **
“What do you do? What do you do?” ****** “You go on
that side.” **** which was the right thing, but I tried
to go back to my uncle who was in that group and they
kept chasing me away, so. But *** they were just taken
out and shot. ***

So this was done ** for a while, there were ashes,
there was a ghetto. They organized a ghetto, fixed us
up a ghetto and whoever was left was made to work in
different places. They assigned us at nine in the
morning. But we had little apartment to get in and this
land around it and it was kind of a whole neighborhood
that was fenced off. This was the ghetto. And inside
was a little community life. They opened up the
floorboards in the floor and down the hall we needed to
hide possible ***** all kinds of food(?) like that
because we were all locked in there and the guards were
all standing outside.

And then one day, I mean they came different times,
with different actions, just collecting us. Everybody
was lined up and say, “You go here, you go here, you go
here, you go there.” You didn’t know where you were
going, but I guess there were people that were taken
out for extermination, and there were people who were
taken out to different places to go to work or to the *
When they came for us that last time I was *** We were
put on a freight train and taken away to Germany. At
Stuthof was this concentration camp that the train
landed in, and that was a very interesting, I mean it
was a very — this was **** We were loaded up in this
freight train, and a very interesting thing. On the
freight train you’re going, you don’t know exactly
where you are going but it’s a prison train, that you
can — you’re watched and you gotta stay inside, you
can’t go out. And there’s a lot of people and it’s
crowded. Everybody was maneuvering to find a more
comfortable place to sit/be. So the whole attention was
to see if people were *** by their friends and they
were moving in the straw so they had some place, a
little cushion. And it was an interesting scene that
way. But anyhow, we landed at Stuthof and suddenly it
was night and all the doors opened up and ****

So they got us all off of the train and we had to drop
all our clothes in one pile and shoes in another pile
and go to the shower. When we came out of the shower
they had uniforms for us, we couldn’t even go near the
clothes. But the shoes, we were to use the same shoes
that we’d left there except it was hard to find your
own. My uncle and I went through the pile of shoes, and
he found his boots, and see those boots, he had in the
heel some * gold coins, something. I couldn’t find my
shoes but I kept on trying different shoes and this one
shoe I was trying there was no ** there. So I reached
in and there were gold coins and a gold ring that
somebody had left inside the shoe. So we both got it
out with riches you might say in that situation.

There were little (garages?) *** you sleep in, laying
one next to one next to each other on flats. And in the
morning there’s a bell, and everybody gets up and get
outside and you stand there and they count you and they
point you to where you’re going to go for the next *
There was this Polish convict and he had a green thing,
it was a triangle on his uniform, who was some kind of
charge of us. He’d ** get us out and make us all stand
and check everything out and when the German officers
would come through he would have it all ready for them.
He wielded a lot of power. He’s passing us by and he
looks everybody in the eye and he comes to me and looks
me in the eye and he reaches in my pocket and gets the
ring out. How? I was a kid. What I showed I don’t know,
but that was the — and he gave me a slap in the face
and walked on because he didn’t want to make anyone
wait. But that was only the one ring. I had coins in my
other pocket.

From there comes two *. We were taken to Dachau. This
is where we were separated, we really were * separated
*** The only two people from my town that were together
was my uncle and I. We were taken to Germany * Bavaria
and Dachau. From there we were taken to what they
called *** They were working and building underground
factories and they had some plan in mind. It was the
forest and they were *** they were and setting up
roads ** we were working on setting up the roads,
pouring the sand for the lanes * the railroad tracks,
stuff like that.

I have used the coins that I had to (smuggle out) food
from the * of the kitchen people, and I was sharing it
with my uncle and a couple old friends, we all ate what
I had until it was gone. Now I waited for my uncle to
open up his heel. He wouldn’t do it. “Ah naw, we don’t
need it. We’ll need it more later. We’ll need it more,
we’ll need it more.” Well, the end came, we were
liberated, that was the end and he still had the coins.
Interestingly enough, they were stolen from him in Tel
Aviv. But I always ******** I used to go up and then he
wouldn’t **** So ** I was looking another way * Israel.

Where he made so much money, I don’t know. But the
family had sent him to Israel as a young guy starting
off at 19 or 20 * and — that’s right, he just died a
couple years ago and he was 91, so it was about 20
years ******** I did want to go back to ****** at that
time, I was thinking, “Well these people live here.”
And we come — I have already, I’m ** brainwashed that
I had when I grew up. We had the same fantasies that I
hear Israelies today, you know — our land, and we were
exiled from it and it’s a waste and nobody does
anything with it, it’s waiting for us to come and bring
it back to life. That was clearly God’s will, whatever.

So Arabs live there, so — but I thought they were
buying it. Turns out there was this *** soil, this was
a perpetual pump for Israel and we were little kids in
most of these camps and then they were all making us **
just to reclaim our homeland. And I grew up with that.
But this was before the Russians came and everything
and I said well I used to feel that ** but you know
there’s these other people there, and their land Israel
**. So I didn’t go in that direction. There were other
things too, of course. My father was here in this
country. He was a rabbi.

R: How did he get to this country?

How he got to this country is before all this happened.
He got to this country — he left before I was born,
when my mother was pregnant with me. Or maybe some
months later. She contracted Asian flu. ****** but it
was a very severe illness, because they didn’t have any
cure for it, and actually she became semi-paralyzed,
and that was when she was pregnant with me. And what
kind of **** I have no idea, I don’t know otherwise,
but she knew that he was gone. He went to Israel first
and then from Israel to America, and he became a rabbi
here. He was the head of a Jewish agency in Jerusalem
for a while. Well I didn’t want to have anything to do
with that. He also had a new family, he had a wife and
kids, and he had gotten a divorce *** just what I had
** with my family but not very above board, you know.

They have something in the Jewish laws about that. My
mother was there, she was ****** Anyhow, so he got a
new family and I never was interested in going back to
my father, you know, but I did want to go in his
direction. I mean this was a * country that had —
looking for a future, you know, accepting everybody
from the old countries and something about it ****

R: So after your liberation you came directly to the
United States?

I went to Sweden and the United States, because we got
out early, quickly, because he was a rabbi, an
influential guy, whatever, and he arranged for us to be
taken by Red Cross *** from there we came ***
I’ll never forget, one of the things he said early,
“Thank God you didn’t become a Communist. If you’d
become a communist I would have to disown you.” What? I
heard that ** at the start. Quickly after we got there
I started to look for other relatives and whatever just
to get away from them, and that was that.

R: So when you went to Baltimore you were then what, 18
or 20 years old or something?

When I came here I was 21, 20 years old. I can remember
46, and I was born in 1925. I came in the first part of
46, March, and my birthday is in October, so I would
have been 21 because I was 20 when I got here.
I remember so many things. I think ** fast forward and
that’s enough about my story here — I’m going to have
to cut down because of —

R: That’s good. You can make bigger or smaller later,
but then you left Baltimore, you went to some college
or school somewhere?

I went to school, yes. I went to Brooklyn, New York
where I had these aunts, my mother’s aunts, and
relatives there. And we got a job in a * factory, so I
was working as a laborer in the day and went to school
at night. And in New York was called the Rose
Preparatory School, it was a good school, too, with ***
and when I graduated, ** the year I started college.
And then we moved to get away from that area all
together. We got jobs in **

R: Who’s we?

My sister and I. My sister, they both — my brother-inlaw,
he *** Germany **here and they got married and the
three of us left for Milwaukee. We were already
together. We all had jobs and stayed together ** and
went through **

R: Stop there? Enough for today?

R: Where are we in our story?

I don’t remember.

R: How did you get to the United States from Europe?

Okay, I was in Europe, in Munich. And actually, I have
fond memories of my period after liberation in Munich
until I moved, traveled from there to Sweden. And there
was a period of time when I found a — They had a camp
for us Americans after we were liberated from the Nazi
camps.

R: Which camp you were liberated?

Dachau. The last days in Dachau were — they collected
us all, everybody in Dachau, they gave us our
provisions, some we had never seen in those years —
complete loaves of bread to be divided because they
were handing out all their supplies, they were leaving.

And so they started to march us. We’d march all night,
walk, walk, walk. It turned out later we were walking
in circles kind of. But in the night — in the daytime
you’d be waiting in the woods, hiding in the woods, and
that was sleep time, in daytime. We were walking, there
was loaves of bread, and there were several people who
were the owners of this particular **. I saw skeletons,
literally skeletons, trying to rob somebody, another
skeleton from the loaf of bread, and they were not
separate. They were just — it was like surreal
(fiction) picture of starving people when they were
getting a taste of bread, and what they did to each
other, and some people were killed that day, I think.

R: This was before leaving Dachau?

After leaving Dachau.

R: Walking to, in circles.

We got supplies, it was handed out and you were told
there will be no more and not **

R: So maybe you were a skeleton yourself.

Yeah. Exactly. I was pretty — my feet were getting
sore and I think I was already one of these people who
would have dropped on maybe in another day or two. You
know, I just — could be an exaggeration, but I was
getting tired. And they had, you know, dogs and the
people would fall by the wayside it’s * time for the
dogs. And in the daytime we’d be hiding in the woods,
but we could hear there were a lot more airplanes
flying missions, you know, bombing missions.

R: You mean the American army liberated the camp, gave
you the bread —

No, no, no, Americans weren’t here yet. They left —
they took us out of the camp and started to march —

R: Ah, the famous death march.

I don’t know what they called it, I just —

R: It was the Germans with the dogs following along,
going in circles.

We were not yet liberated. Before we left the ** they
were buzzing the camp, American airplanes, so they’d
come real close and near and they started to be more
frequent that we could feel and see that the end is
coming, and then they gathered everybody together from
the outlying camps and brought everybody back in the
central camp and there we were, sleeping by the day and
they’d line us all up in a big open area and that’s
when they told us there would be no more supplies,
they’re giving out all the supplies so you better hang
on to it ** because there would be no more. And we
marched for several days. We were hiding, kind of. What
it turned out is, the number of guards was thinning,
and so a lot of them were running away. They didn’t
know what to do with us. Later we heard that there were
orders from Himmler to annihilate everybody, but it was
too late, they couldn’t carry out the order or were
chicken or whatever, and they pulled us out and we were
just dragged around through, in the area, and we were
liberated and ** big deaths * at one of the main * I do
recall from various ** attacking, grabbing some. There
were apparently — there were Hungarians, there were
Lithuanians, there were Greeks, and different — and it
was like international countries who were fighting each
other. They were very dangerous because they were
bandits grabbing from the others, from the Poles or
from whoever they were. The national were all together.

We were all together. Lithuanians we all stuck together
in one group. And so if you were a big group you kind
of were a little safer, but you had to watch out
because you could see what stragglers were getting
attacked and destroyed for their bread by other victims
just like themselves.

R: Dog eat dog.

I saw that among my own people, and so that’s one thing
that remains in my memory.

One morning we arrived into a little town called
Aachen. It was near ***** Officer Training School. And
on the outskirts of town there was a big barn and the
German guards were already gone. The people who were
guarding us were Hungarian, older, old Hungarians, and
they were Nazi sympathizers, volunteers, and they used
them here now, but those were the last guards
remaining. Anyhow, they were — I think about 150 or
something of us were put in the big barn and the door
was closed and we didn’t know what happened to the
others and so forth. And it turned out that there were
other barns like this in which they got put. And we
were in the barn for a few hours and it started
rumbling and *should see what’s going on out there and
people were fearful and they — “They’re waiting
outside the door with machine guns so they can say that
we were running away, they had to kill us.” That was
plausible, one of the more plausible hypotheses we
kicked at for a while. But guess what? I was a young
kid still and compared to ** or whatever, I guess I was
a little more impatient than the others and after I
heard for hours the same argument back and forth etc.,
I just kicked the door open. Guess what? There was
nobody outside. So we started to walk out and now we
were outside the barn and free, clearly free, there was
no guard. And I was elected to get closer to the barn
—

R: And split.

*** a dead horse there not too far away, shot. People
started to attack them. We were milling around, we
tried looking in the town. I don’t remember exact
distances, but it was not far from us. Down below and
seemed quiet, nothing going on there, nobody was out in
the streets or anything. And after a couple of hours
American tanks arrived. And that was the moment of
liberation. We were in uniform, stripes etc., and they
were so wild, they were throwing at us food, wine,
rations and so people were standing, eating all these
things. And so suddenly we had all these — And a
little later, and there were people who killed each
other. But suddenly, the rich food that they couldn’t
handle and they couldn’t **

R: Ate themselves to death.

Mm-hmm. You know, maybe not at that moment, but…
Well, after a couple of hours — but they were a group,
they were hanging together. My uncle was with me and we
were kind of rationally looking at this thing and there
was a little support to say well *** be careful. A
little bit later they stopped ** the captain stopped
and they had officially, whatever, found us and they
were going to do something to take care of us, and they
transported us to the ** (batures?)******** train * I
saw — and it was of course abandoned, there was nobody
there. There wasn’t a soul there, barrels of wine. And
people got to these barrels, uncorked them, and wine
was spilling on the floor and people were ** the wine
from the barrel, and then they died too. And there were
people there especially who couldn’t handle whatever
was happening, it was their last —

R: Wow.

From there, this was just a very temporary station, *
you’re in county jail waiting for your long-term to be
— They had a camp for us *** what they called the ***
and the Strombergers. It was a beautiful place, right
on a lake, and nice barracks **** and they were taking
care of us, you know, *** medical help and there was a
committee or whatever ** getting a little organized and
all these things. And there were sexual activities that
were hidden from (kids?). The next room, it was a
birthing place. But, so now you were like in a minimum
security camp, from the adjustment center or something.
It was very very nice, but still it was under the
regime, you know. There are the bosses who are taking
care of you. For instance, *** we were in a strange
country among previous oppressors or whatever, and you
won’t stay there. And that’s where I parted company
with my uncle. I said, “Naw, it’s not for me. I’ve been
in camps long enough.” I went out of there and hitchhiked.
There was American amphibian ** both in the
water and on the road, that’s who picked me up. They
were going to Munich. I said, “Great! I’ll go to
Munich.” They said, “Well, what are you going to do
down in Munich?” I said, “Well, the first thing I have
to do is get some food and then get a place to stay,”
but, you know, I was young ***** whatever, and “Hey,
you liberated us, right? This is enemy country and so
we are now free,” you know, and I think they were
definitely interested in taking care of us and so
forth. So that got me a little * What I did was I went
to city hall directly. And I came there and I said,
“Hey, I’m coming” — I showed the uniform — “I’m
coming from the concentration camp and you guys
liberated us and I don’t want to be in a concentration
camp anymore, you know. I’ve been there long enough and
now I want ****

R: Speaking English at this point or what?

German, yeah. These were Germans. This is not the
Americans. It was German city hall. But this is after
they lost the war and they were ruled by the occupiers,
but the but the civil government was functioning. They
were giving out ration cards to everyone, and so I
wanted a ration card. And so they gave me a ration
card. I said, “Well, I have ten others who couldn’t
make it to walk * They gave me ten ration cards. Next I
need a place to stay. They gave me a list, you know,
what’s available, what they had, where there were
leases they had. I left there with a couple addresses
to check out for a place to live and I had ten ration
cards which I know I have now to take care of any rent
*** or whatever.

But he was, you know, * strong, with a German face,
straight up and walking a lot. He had — his wife was
much shorter than he was *** And I said, “Hey, this is
where I want to stay,” I thought, you know. He’s an old
professor, a regular guy, seemed very friendly and ****
too. They had a roomer *** it was an older lady, she
was a widow, and — he had a mistress in another part
of town and pretty soon he invited me to dinner at his
mistress’s house. ** That was a kind of a setup, I
guess, the old aristocratic ways that they had. And I
was very interested at the time. When it came time to
go to the United States, he advised me not to go there.

“Don’t go to the United States,” he says. “Stay here
where the mensch ***” Where the person, human, is
closer to another person. And I thought difference than
what? This is where people are close to each other?
Thank you. Years later and I can see what he meant and
it is true. In this country where the urbanization took
place and people became more urban, they are a little
further from the roots that they come from and not this
close to another *** more ** it’s just we don’t see
much anymore, but we hear about them. They grew up
together and then they (built) their lives together and
everybody knew each other. They weren’t running around
all over the world, just strangers passing through.

They were people who knew each other. Parents,
grandparents, friends and neighbors, so they were sort
of more ingrown together. And ** rented apartments,
affordable or not, you’re still far removed from any of
your neighbors. So that took me years, but I always
kept it in mind. That’s one thing ***

Ah. Anyhow. In the meantime, he also set me up with a
Professor Meyer, who a sociologist, he was going to
educate me because I missed my high school education
and so forth and I was still there. He was really very
nice. Both of them were very nice people ** friendly,
and that helped me a lot because it cleared out my head
about racial — where we come from and where we are
going is not the same place and we’re all coming from
different backgrounds but we still have a lot.

Everybody is not just like those fanatics who was
trying to erase all the others from the ** So that was
(quickly) a good experience for me and ***I enjoyed it
a lot. *** I had a girlfriend there. Then my cousin
came which was of course another thing, * one day.

R: How did he find you?

Sure enough at two o’clock he was back. He was a big
dude. I have this picture on my page. It’s an American
soldier ** that’s the guy. And he was maybe a couple
years older than I, maybe one or two years. Anyway, he
shows up at the door and he says, **** “I’m your
cousin!” That was a strange experience, you know,
because (it was) not expected. I don’t think you know
anybody, I’ve heard there might be a few people but I
have my personal emissary, you know, my cousin from the
liberating forces who were there and stationed right
there and he’s going to be interested in whatever, and
we became very close buddies at the time.

R: How did he find you?

The Red Cross had made lists of all the survivors that
they found. My father, who was a Rabbi in Baltimore at
the time, found this list and he found that I was in
Munich where he was and he sent a telegram or a letter
or something to Danny, “Make sure you find my son! My
son! He’s alive! Can you maybe find him?” or whatever.
And so that’s how he found out I was there.
His daughter, I just met his daughter. Well I met her
once when she was a very little girl, and she lives in
the valley now. I remember when he was in Munich, we
were close buddies. I had my girlfriend was living
right there and he’d come over and we’d all go to a
nightclub together. And he had written a little, for
the family, it’s a notebook, and they ** there was only
one chapter that “This is for someone now * a legend.”

That one chapter that names the name: “How I Met Leon.”
My name is — I said “Wow, I really must have meant a
lot to you ****” I did. But he used to say, “When I get
back to the United States I’m going to make a lot of
money” (and he did?) Nobody learned from anybody else’s
experience, but I learned from mine, you know. I knew
my parents, and grandparents, and their whole life was
working hard and taking care of the business and ** the
business and it became a yoke around their necks and
they would kill themselves because they said well, **
all the money *** the money and that’s why we are
giving, I guess that was the most explanation they
could have is that they were all jealous of us because
we were not like them, we didn’t mingle with them, they
were Orthodox Jewish, they were wearing like a nice —
I saw my buddy in Jerusalem, who called me the other
day by the way too, he’s got an operation ***** “You’re
not my brother. Maybe we are brothers, but we are
certainly ** opposite direction, you know, not —
although we are friends and I can, you know, but I
can’t understand is people who live in a place, I mean
people who *** stay away from everybody ** they just
have these strange habits and they go on in their own
ways. They think I’m very odd because I’m not really
quite right or whatever, and I understand though that,
I thought, well —

R: So you had this cool setup in Munich with the
girlfriend and Danny is there and the place to live,
and at some point you decided to go to the United
States.

Okay, my father found us, correct? And so now Danny
found us. Okay, ahh, thank God you find the children,
because God, their life was — they could have been
taken back to Russia or something. He has big fears,
whatever, *** young. And he went to Sweden and
connected, of course, he wrote * for us and whatever,
and we were going to be — One day the captain of the
whatever, he was ** We were displaced persons *** and
so persons who chartered this * or whatever, I got a
couple of them got visas to go to the United States,
our father was kind of an important figure there or
whatever and they’ll let us go immediately to Sweden.

R: So who’s we? Who went with you?

My sister.

R: So she was in Munich, she got to Munich.
She got to Munich after a while. And that’s a whole
other story, because I had no idea where she was and my
present brother-in-law, they had met in the ghetto
before we were moved to the Germany, the concentration
camps, and they were sort of hanging out together. He
went to some camp near mine, and it was where they kept
— he was getting pretty weak or something. They had a
place for people who were just on their way out kind
of, whatever. But he found me in Munich. That was all
in the same area. He was in another camp but not too
far away. He came and showed up. So we are buddies
because he’s the guy that my sister was going out with
before and all that. He’s an interesting story himself,
because he’s one of the very few people I know —

R: Okay, your sister’s boyfriend.

Okay, so he was now in Munich, nearby. He wasn’t living
in the same place I did but this * little place and (we
were) seeing a lot of each other and so forth. One day
somebody came who was in East Germany, another Jewish
person more close to our age, I guess, I remember * we
didn’t know who it was exactly, but he had a witness,
an eye-witness report. My sister was shot to death. She
was trying to run away from a camp and she was running
and they were starting to shoot and they shot her and
she fell and also a cow that was nearby got shot and
fell over her and that was the last of her. We got that
report, and for a while — it was an eye-witness
report, so we were in mourning. Then one day my sister
shows up at the door. Knock knock. In the same place,
in the same room, in the same house, another knock on
the door and there’s my sister. “Yes,” she comes in the
door, she was trying to run away, and they were
shooting, but she fell and that cow fell over her. She
didn’t get shot, the cow got shot. So she was there
hiding for a while until it was gone over and she
continued running away. So she had run away. She was
liberated by the Russian army. So my sister was back.
And of course in the meantime my father was working,
getting the papers and so forth, and we were going to
transport with some other people to Sweden.

R: So you and your sister and your sister’s boyfriend.

No. He — after we got to this country — it took us a
while, but we got him papers.

R: Separate project.

Yeah. That was a project to bring him over.

R: So you and your sister got to Sweden and your father
was still there?

No, he wasn’t. In the meantime he had gone to look for
us in Germany and he spent too much time so he had to
go back to the United States. So we didn’t meet there,
but he had already arranged with the consulate and so
forth, we were gearing up ** and when we got to the
country he met us. Ah, I have a couple of pictures in
my mind that stayed from all those experiences from
this time, and one of them is, when our transport came
into Sweden from Germany, they first put us in what
they call an intern camp. It was a very nice place, it
was like an * in the woods and very nice, you know, but
it was where we were kept for a little while, isolated,
because you had to be checked out medically and all the
other things. And they were entertaining us and I
remember it was near Christmas time because I remember
the song they were singing, you know, Santa Lucia and
so forth.

From there, we got tickets to go to Stockholm to the
address of this Rabbi that we were going to. And our
train was leaving far away from town, so they took us
in the bus to downtown, and we got there a little
early, you know, from when the train was going to
leave, and I had needed a haircut by that time, ** and
here there was nothing to do. I said, “I’ll get a good
haircut while we are waiting.” So I went to a
barbershop and they didn’t understand German and I
couldn’t speak ** Ah! So! He dipped my head in these
*** washed my hands. Anyhow, they did all kinds of
things, and by the time they were done, I remember it
was ** they gave us the money for on the road and it
was gone. I didn’t have any money for the train ticket.
So we had to come back again because — So somehow *
this is the story that I remember. But we made another
turn and got back there.

From there, we got the papers and all that and there
was a train that took us from Stockholm from Malza(?),
Malza is the port, and the boat that we were going on
was a Liberty Ship. Liberty Ship was a freighter, it
was designed in the war ** they were now part of the
Merchant Marine but they were (supply ships) **** and
so forth. There were ten passengers aboard that
freighter, and our first stop was in Denmark,
Copenhagen. And sailors were going out to town to
Copenhagen, and of course, we were kind of new,
whatever. My sister wouldn’t go, of course, but I did,
you know. Hey! We’re ***Sure. *** Copenhagen. The guy
helped pay for a couple hotel rooms on half a floor or
whatever and the ** ran to get the women there, before
they brought the women, and ** one of them be mine and
they’re willing to do other things and *** well I don’t
have to go into all the details, but turned out that
these two women were not prostitutes or anything. They
were working in the telephone company. This was their
excitement and adventure, the Americans. Partying,
yeah. Party time. So I remember this very well.

Actually I have very vivid memories of this (party).
And we came back the next day to the boat and there
also *** it wasn’t the telephone operators that I knew
but there was another woman and she might have been a
prostitute or not, I really don’t know, but — well,
she must have been, because she came along for the ride
to New York. She wanted to get away from — because she
was going to be a stowaway and they were going to have
their companion. And there was one room especially that
the bursar had that — the Liberty Ship was loaded up,
the cargo was Schnapps, Danish Schnapps. And in his
cabin, a couple of boys pried open and was loading up
their share. And this room was the perpetual permanent
open bar. There were a couple guys that were playing
music, etc., and I couldn’t understand anything. There
was one Polish guy, a sailor, an American sailor, who
was born in Poland, but he spoke a little German, so he
was my translator or whatever, and I was hanging out
with them there and we were drinking all the time. In
the meantime, another part of the story, a different
place — the dining room where the ten passengers ate,
one of the passengers was a Swedish war bride. She was
going to the United States to join her husband,
American officer that she married. On the third day she
disappeared from the dining room, nobody saw her. What
happened? She ended up in the captain’s cabin and
nobody saw her. She was in the captain’s cabin. I go
back to the bursar’s place, where we were all drinking
all day, the captain discovered the stowaway and locked
her up. And he was like *** drinking buddy and I got
the translation from this *** Plans were hatched for
vengeance on the captain, and we spent a lot of time
composing different *** drunken sailors making up a
letter to the husband of the war bride who was in the
captain’s captain, but he took their woman and locked
her up from everybody. That was one of the mysteries
that intrigued me from the beginning. I thought maybe
she worked with the captain ***** Of course when we got
off the boat *** we didn’t see anybody, you know. ***

They would have done it. They were going to *** telling
the officer about what happened with the captain and
his bride that was coming to see him. That nobody saw
for the remainder of the trip. *** Did he get the
telegram? What happened ***? I’ve probably wondered
about that story more than anything *** what happened
to her and the captain. No idea. Nothing ever *** But
those are the ** memories of our trip.

And then our father came to pick us up —

R: It landed in New York?

It landed in New York, and we didn’t stay there because
he lived in Baltimore, remember and after ** we took a
train. I remember the train. And we went to Baltimore.
And we stayed in Father’s house, who was remarried and
he had a family and several kids, and we (didn’t?) feel
comfortable there at all. I mean, first of all, “Ah!”

*** “Thank God you didn’t become Communist or I’d have
to disown you…”

** Do I really have to? **** Well, my mother had
relatives in Brooklyn. My grandpa, my baby sister and
others were there already, so, * find a way to get a
way to get in touch with them, I’m going to get out of
this ** number one. Well I certainly didn’t — I had to
act ** in public as if, you know, I’m just totally
going along with his religious ideas. I mean I didn’t
become a communist to *** but I certainly had lost any
faith in the religious ideas.

R: Let me ask you about the **. The liberation was I
suppose in August 1945.

May.

R: May 1945, and you were in Munich in the fall of 1945
and then the Christmas Carols in Stockholm is still
1945?

I arrived in the United States in March 1946.

R: And how long in Baltimore before going to Brooklyn?
You know, I don’t remember the exact time, but maybe a
year, maybe not quite that. Yeah, I stayed there and he
asked me to go ** with him ***

R: 1947 then you moved to Brooklyn with your sister?

Yeah, I haven’t thought about the numbers of the years.
I never remember my birthday, you know. I did remember
it was ***** October 6, well it was not 1925, I didn’t
— it wasn’t brought up much, when I was a kid and grew
up it was during the circus and that was my birthday,
but October 6th you never knew. So it took ** getting
used to, getting down on applications and whatever kind
of thing, was my birthday. So the dates, I mean I can
figure it out if I have to because I remember *** but
approximately

R: So maybe we should stop here and next time we’ll
start with Brooklyn?

Okay.

R: Where are we in our story?

I don’t remember.

R: How did you get to the United States from Europe?
Okay, I was in Europe, in Munich. And actually, I have
fond memories of my period after liberation in Munich
until I moved, traveled from there to Sweden. And there
was a period of time when I found a — They had a camp
for us Americans after we were liberated from the Nazi
camps.

R: Which camp you were liberated?

R: This was before leaving Dachau?

After leaving Dachau.

R: Walking to, in circles.

We got supplies, it was handed out and you were told
there will be no more and not **

R: So maybe you were a skeleton yourself.

R: You mean the American army liberated the camp, gave
you the bread —

No, no, no, Americans weren’t here yet. They left —
they took us out of the camp and started to march —

R: Ah, the famous death march.

I don’t know what they called it, I just —

R: It was the Germans with the dogs following along,
going in circles.

R: Dog eat dog.

I saw that among my own people, and so that’s one thing
that remains in my memory.

R: And split.

R: Ate themselves to death.

R: Wow.

Yeah. Another scene I remember from that — In our camp
where we were, because a lot of strangers were camped
outside of Dauchau ** they wanted to build some
underground factories or facilities or — and they got
as far as laying the road tracks, railroad tracks, and
we were doing that work, and a couple was a guy who was
the leader appointed by the guards, the warden,
whoever, who was like, they have what, a prison foreman
or something who was in charge **. Well, that captain
was a young guy, I mean as you see here many people who
said, well ** he was a Jewish guy, *** he was from
Poland I think, or Hungary, I don’t even remember. He
was a young guy. When they were ready to thin the ranks
they told him to go and get 20 people. He’d just go
through and collect them and send them out and we never
saw those people again. And so there was a lot of **
And he was there with the rest of us, in Baturas** and
people got ahold of him and they said **** They
surrounded him with pots and pans and they were going
to beat him to death. They were hitting him with pots
and pans, whatever they found. Until the American
captain saw it and separated them and saved him, but I
saw that (several times?) *** I heard that he later
emigrated to the United States, he was somewhere in the
South, but I don’t know what happened to him but he did
make it to the United States. But he almost got killed.
From there, this was just a very temporary station, *
you’re in county jail waiting for your long-term to be
— They had a camp for us *** what they called the ***
and the Strombergers. It was a beautiful place, right
on a lake, and nice barracks **** and they were taking
care of us, you know, *** medical help and there was a
committee or whatever ** getting a little organized and
all these things. And there were sexual activities that
were hidden from (kids?). The next room, it was a
birthing place. But, so now you were like in a minimum
security camp, from the adjustment center or something.
It was very very nice, but still it was under the
regime, you know. There are the bosses who are taking
care of you. For instance, *** we were in a strange
country among previous oppressors or whatever, and you
won’t stay there. And that’s where I parted company
with my uncle. I said, “Naw, it’s not for me. I’ve been
in camps long enough.” I went out of there and hitchhiked.
There was American amphibian ** both in the
water and on the road, that’s who picked me up. They
were going to Munich. I said, “Great! I’ll go to
Munich.” They said, “Well, what are you going to do
down in Munich?” I said, “Well, the first thing I have
to do is get some food and then get a place to stay,”
but, you know, I was young ***** whatever, and “Hey,
you liberated us, right? This is enemy country and so
we are now free,” you know, and I think they were
definitely interested in taking care of us and so
forth. So that got me a little * What I did was I went
to city hall directly. And I came there and I said,
“Hey, I’m coming” — I showed the uniform — “I’m
coming from the concentration camp and you guys
liberated us and I don’t want to be in a concentration
camp anymore, you know. I’ve been there long enough and
now I want ****

R: Speaking English at this point or what?

I needed money. I stood on the steps at city hall ***
and I held up everyone *** I had money. And I checked
out the addresses that they gave me. One of them was in
(Zemlinger Toclat) and that was a house where an old
professor lived. He was a physics professor. Hagenmur,
Karl Hagenmur. I really liked the guy. We became very
good friends. I don’t know, I mean now, was he — I
thought he was around 80 maybe at that time, so I guess
it was, to me he was much older than I am right now.
But he was, you know, * strong, with a German face,
straight up and walking a lot. He had — his wife was
much shorter than he was *** And I said, “Hey, this is
where I want to stay,” I thought, you know. He’s an old
professor, a regular guy, seemed very friendly and ****
too. They had a roomer *** it was an older lady, she
was a widow, and — he had a mistress in another part
of town and pretty soon he invited me to dinner at his
mistress’s house. ** That was a kind of a setup, I
guess, the old aristocratic ways that they had. And I
was very interested at the time. When it came time to
go to the United States, he advised me not to go there.
“Don’t go to the United States,” he says. “Stay here
where the mensch ***” Where the person, human, is
closer to another person. And I thought difference than
what? This is where people are close to each other?
Thank you. Years later and I can see what he meant and
it is true. In this country where the urbanization took
place and people became more urban, they are a little
further from the roots that they come from and not this
close to another *** more ** it’s just we don’t see
much anymore, but we hear about them. They grew up
together and then they (built) their lives together and
everybody knew each other. They weren’t running around
all over the world, just strangers passing through.

R: How did he find you?

One day I come home to where we are living in this
house and the landlady *** “An American soldier was
here looking for you” and she’s scared to death because
Americans were the occupiers force and looking now for
one of the tenants, and so * it was a little weird, you
know. “But he’s going to be back here” all this stuff.
Sure enough at two o’clock he was back. He was a big
dude. I have this picture on my page. It’s an American
soldier ** that’s the guy. And he was maybe a couple
years older than I, maybe one or two years. Anyway, he
shows up at the door and he says, **** “I’m your
cousin!” That was a strange experience, you know,
because (it was) not expected. I don’t think you know
anybody, I’ve heard there might be a few people but I
have my personal emissary, you know, my cousin from the
liberating forces who were there and stationed right
there and he’s going to be interested in whatever, and
we became very close buddies at the time.

R: How did he find you?

His daughter, I just met his daughter. Well I met her
once when she was a very little girl, and she lives in
the valley now. I remember when he was in Munich, we
were close buddies. I had my girlfriend was living
right there and he’d come over and we’d all go to a
nightclub together. And he had written a little, for
the family, it’s a notebook, and they ** there was only
one chapter that “This is for someone now * a legend.”

That one chapter that names the name: “How I Met Leon.”

My name is — I said “Wow, I really must have meant a
lot to you ****” I did. But he used to say, “When I get
back to the United States I’m going to make a lot of
money” (and he did?) Nobody learned from anybody else’s
experience, but I learned from mine, you know. I knew
my parents, and grandparents, and their whole life was
working hard and taking care of the business and ** the
business and it became a yoke around their necks and
they would kill themselves because they said well, **
all the money *** the money and that’s why we are
giving, I guess that was the most explanation they
could have is that they were all jealous of us because
we were not like them, we didn’t mingle with them, they
were Orthodox Jewish, they were wearing like a nice —
I saw my buddy in Jerusalem, who called me the other
day by the way too, he’s got an operation ***** “You’re
not my brother. Maybe we are brothers, but we are
certainly ** opposite direction, you know, not —
although we are friends and I can, you know, but I
can’t understand is people who live in a place, I mean
people who *** stay away from everybody ** they just
have these strange habits and they go on in their own
ways. They think I’m very odd because I’m not really
quite right or whatever, and I understand though that,
I thought, well —

R: So you had this cool setup in Munich with the
girlfriend and Danny is there and the place to live,
and at some point you decided to go to the United
States.

R: So who’s we? Who went with you?

My sister.

R: Okay, your sister’s boyfriend.

R: So you and your sister and your sister’s boyfriend.

No. He — after we got to this country — it took us a
while, but we got him papers.

R: Separate project.

Yeah. That was a project to bring him over.

R: So you and your sister got to Sweden and your father
was still there?

And then our father came to pick us up —

R: It landed in New York?
It landed in New York, and we didn’t stay there because
he lived in Baltimore, remember and after ** we took a
train. I remember the train. And we went to Baltimore.
And we stayed in Father’s house, who was remarried and
he had a family and several kids, and we (didn’t?) feel
comfortable there at all. I mean, first of all, “Ah!”

*** “Thank God you didn’t become Communist or I’d have
to disown you…”

R: Let me ask you about the **. The liberation was I
suppose in August 1945.

May.

R: May 1945, and you were in Munich in the fall of 1945
and then the Christmas Carols in Stockholm is still
1945?

I arrived in the United States in March 1946.

R: And how long in Baltimore before going to Brooklyn?
You know, I don’t remember the exact time, but maybe a
year, maybe not quite that. Yeah, I stayed there and he
asked me to go ** with him ***

R: 1947 then you moved to Brooklyn with your sister?
Yeah, I haven’t thought about the numbers of the years.
I never remember my birthday, you know. I did remember
it was ***** October 6, well it was not 1925, I didn’t
— it wasn’t brought up much, when I was a kid and grew
up it was during the circus and that was my birthday,
but October 6th you never knew. So it took ** getting
used to, getting down on applications and whatever kind
of thing, was my birthday. So the dates, I mean I can
figure it out if I have to because I remember *** but
approximately

R: So maybe we should stop here and next time we’ll
start with Brooklyn?

Okay.

Ralph: OK, Los Gatos–can’t remember what year. Where
are we here? 1964 or something.

When I came to Neal’s house it was 1962.

R: 1962, okay, great.

I came to Los Gatos, it was 1962.

R: So you had no job then because you had been
struggling with no job and–

Yeah, I’d been, for two years I was without a job. I
was just waiting to resolve the issue. I wasn’t taking
it lying down. And I was struggling.

R: Then it was resolved.

It was resolved. Well, actually, I got to Neal’s before
it got resolved. It was still–I was going to have a
hearing. The first part of my punishment was eviction
to Vacaville. I had a telegram from the director of the
Department of Corrections. He said, “Due to–emergency?
Was it an emergency or–the shortage for psychological
services at the reception center in Vacaville you are
hereby transferred.” No more IP program. And meanwhile
the next day I’m to report in Vacaville. And I can’t
take anything from my office, this is all state
property that’s marked. And I guess they were hoping I
would just, they knew that I wasn’t, I didn’t come
there for a regular job in the Department of
Corrections and doing their administrative work or
whatever they were doing, and so they expected I would
just, I guess, hoping that I would quit. So but I
didn’t quit because I was fighting them. In fact that
battle I won. So, we had a hearing about it, and the
hearing officer, I had witnesses, and they had
witnesses, and hey, what did I do to get on the
emergency? The hearing officer agreed. He says, Mr.
Tabor, he’s right, the reason for his transfer to
Vacaville was not because there were emergency needs
for psychological services but because whatever.

However, they have a right to transfer him and ***
Seems like he came out with a decree that says, it is
true, the director lied, but whatever his reasons are
they still had a right to transfer him.” So this first
time that far. Now what–so I am there.

R: Living in Vacaville.

No, living in Tiburon and driving to Vacaville to work.
I started checking their scene. I was actually very
interested. A couple of months, I don’t remember this
time very much but it was a couple of, not very long, a
few months. And very interesting, actually, in many
ways, as far as the prison and psychological services
and what they’re doing ** to treat people.

But it was during this time that the parole officer’s
report made its way to Sacramento again and now there
is a news telegram from the Director of the Department
of Corrections when I’m in Vacaville that says I’m
fired for willful resubmitting as an insubordination.
Now I’m fired. And so now I was still living in Tiburon
and this is a couple months later and I started to
fight that issue. So I say, “What did you fire me for?
Your rule says I’m not allowed to associate with exconvicts
unless my assignment required me to do so. My
assignment required me to do so. Here’s the memo from
the research director, Freddie * who was **
professional job. I’m just learning what to do. We were
setting up a parole follow-through program. My job–”
So it was, but it took a while, but now I started to
look for a job by this time, because I now wanted ***
And so that’s when I got a job in San Jose in the
mental health clinic and went to live with the
Cassadys. In fact I lived with them until the hearing
came up, and by then I already had a job. In fact
Caroline went with me to the hearing. And I won the
case. The hearing officer, his name was Toussant, I
remember. And he said “Mr. Tabore acted reasonably
under all the circumstances.” From all this testimony
they had from the * whatever. And my own testimony was
true, you know. But the Personnel Board wrote just as
they did about– “Yeah, the director of the department
lied to him when he said the reason why he was
transferred, but they still had the right (to transfer
him).” The Personnel Board now says, “Well Mr. Tabore
won a moral victory,” that’s the words they used: moral
victory. “But they don’t have to take him back because
they say they can’t work with him because of
philosophical differences.” And so now instead of
winning my case and getting reinstated with back pay,
which is what the hearings officer, her decision was,
they say now there never has to be any of that. “You
won a moral victory. That’s enough.”

So this was, in my early days in the Cassady home, that
was going on. ** I can tell you juicy stuff about
Cassadys here but I will one day because these awful
things that she keeps on saying and, uh, ah it’s really
awful, and it’s totally * But I don’t know what–

R: I’m interested in the sequence of events that go
from San Jose to Santa Cruz.

My move to Santa Cruz had nothing to do with beatniks
or hip people or any of that kind of thing at all. It
was a professional thing. When I worked in the clinic
in San Jose there was — the clinical director was a
psychiatrist whose name was David McCathy. David
McCarthy and I became buddies. We were good friends. We
would have dinner and there was another, many
psychiatrists in Sunnyvale living and it was a whole
scene. We were close friends, involved with this.

Anyway, one of the psychiatrists from our clinic,
Florence Tousent, became the first director of
psychiatry when they opened up the El Camino Hospital,
which was the first private psychiatric facility in
this area, the entire area. The only place for mentally
ill people was in Agnew State Hospital, which was a
warehouse. What happened, I didn’t quite understand all
these things yet at that time, but there is what, there
was a new facility, a new hospital, El Camino Hospital
in Mountain View, and they had a department of
psychiatry, and Florence was the director, the first
one. And she asked me to come in there to work, not as
a job, but to come in to do therapy on the ward. And
they paid me a good wage, hourly wage I received at
that time. And so for about a year I set up the therapy
program at El Camino Hospital, and I worked with them.

R: It was a part-time job.

No, just hourly, so many hours.

R: But you were still working in the San Jose mental
health clinic?

First. After that I was in my private practice in Los
Gatos. Part of the week I was going there. I don’t
remember if it was two or three times a week, but
probably two. But I had a group therapy set up on the
ward for the patients and their families too. I learned
some very interesting things there. How — that’s where
I really — What happened at El Camino Hospital —
Lockheed was the first company at that time that
managed to get a contract that gave them a hundred
percent psychiatric coverage, which was not available.

And what it turned out, a lot of the patients who came
to El Camino were from there. There was a whole culture
of *** Hey, these were the designers of the space
programs and Moffett Field and all these other
innovations and laboratories and whatever were going on
at the time, like computers today, and they were the
brightest and most successful and their income was
mostly from government contracts, defense. It was, as
protection * that’s where you get the biggest money to
support the ** Some of the executives’ wives were
trying to commit suicide. They would be placed in
Agnew. They started a very high coverage for
psychiatric services and then people weren’t going to
Agnew, they were going to get the most modern place,
whatever they could have. These were the people in my
groups, the husbands and their wives and their young
children. They were all *** A lot of it, their
contracts, most of them were ex-generals or ex-high
army or whatever in Washington who were dispensing the
grants, they were the decision makers. When they came
down to * inspect, their wives were expected to cater
to them. Their career — they have all this opportunity
to do all these things and get these things, but it
depends upon how this fucking asshole further down,
whether he’s going to give it to them or going to give
it to some competitor somewhere, it depends how he’s
treated. That’s what was really going on. And some
wives *** so that was the biggest success you could
find in our society or world today, and ending up in a
deep ** despair that *** However, they liked me. So I
did a good job.

The next psychiatric facility that opened after that,
David McCarthy was involved in, and Florence was ***
who went up there and she talked with David and she
thought I was a good man and she got me in. There was
no job applications or competitions or anything. ****
But after that there opened up a psychiatric facility
with the San Jose Hospital and they had used to be — I
want to say they diabetic, but it’s not diabetic —
tuberculosis — there was a tuberculosis facility at
Mount Hamilton. There were the observatories up there,
*** and that was no longer active, right? There was no
more tuberculosis. So they transformed this facility
into a psychiatric department in San Jose Hospital, and
David McCarthy was then in charge of that now. He went
from the clinic to there, and so naturally I was again
invited to start a program there, you know, San Jose.

So there was number two. After that David McCarthy was
asked to start a therapy program in the Santa Cruz
General Hospital, where until that time they used to
commit people, if they had to be committed whatever,
until the court decided what to do, and if they had to
stay they were off to Agnew. So this was more like a
temporary holding facility for this position. And now
they decided they wanted to do something there,
whatever. And so who was invited to do the therapy, to
start a therapy program there? I was already the man
who was starting all these programs, and the only
private facilities that were opening up in the area. So
that’s how I got here. David was telling me how nice it
would be, etcetera.

One of these ** my sister Barbara came to visit me and
he invited us for dinner at the Shadowbrook to show us
how nice Santa Cruz can be or whatever. So I remember
that was one of the things that — ahh! — got me to
Santa Cruz. And so that’s what happened. I had my
private practice in Los Gatos and I was coming in a
couple times a week.

R: So at that time you were living in Los Gatos?

Yes.

R: And did you maintain contact with Neal Cassady and

All throughout that time.

R: And any other hip or beat characters or old friends
from San Francisco?

I had a group of friends from — let’s see, Neal and
his friends already were hanging around with them, we
would sometimes drag them along to come to see me or
whatever, and there were a bunch of them. Followers
kind of, young girls especially.

R: So Ken Kesey and Pranksters were hanging around?

No. The only thing I knew about Kesey, there were a few
times when Neal and I went to San Francisco, and/or
Marin County, wherever we were going, and I stopped a
couple times, once, at — Kesey had moved to La Honda
by then. So I had been there a couple of times with
Neal, and just stopped by.

R: And Allen Ginsburg was anytime coming around or no?

No, I don’t know, I never …

R: Jack Kerouac had already passed away?

No he didn’t pass away yet but there was actually —
when I knew Neal in prison, Jack was really not nice.
He’s actually, a lot of people feel that about Neal, **
always gets himself in trouble, you know, it’s his own
fault, don’t help him and whatever. And in a certain
way that is true if he were asking for help but if
you’re not asking for help, it’s your judgment, it’s
another judgment, you know, they’re not complaining to
you about it. But it’s ***** then they can’t deal with
it. They have to make some judgment about it too.

R: So you were just doing your job in San Jose and
Santa Cruz and maintained your friendship with Cassady.

I had a friendship, I never became too — I never
dropped out from my life to move into their life at
all.

R: So there was like not any explicit interest in LSD,
was not happening yet around California —

Yes, yes, there was an interest. I had an interest in
LSD from — My interest in LSD actually was a speech by
Leary and I forget where that was, but he was through
at Harvard, it was before all the *** so to speak and
the most part was still a limited range of
professionals for looking at it and then considering it
as a professional tool that you might use, and design
** of it as a professional tool — what, me, I have a
tool, you know, but I became very interested. Also,
when I was still in the San Jose clinic, there was a
group in Palo Alto — Storoff was his name, I think, an
engineer with Hewlett-Packard? They had a foundation.

They were giving LSD to patients under careful
evaluation and all these things and they were reporting
some very great experiences. There was, when I was a
psychologist in the clinc and David McCarthy was still
chief there that I got my chance to go up there and
visit and check them out and talk and it was just very
very impressive stuff, very impressive stuff. So I was
interested. But I was interested from that standpoint,
looking as a professional ** wanting to get a better
tool to work with. And as I remember from the early
days, I offered to Leary when we started to work more,
and I thought that Alpert was more — and Leary too
when they started they were more or less about it as a
therapeutic tool…

R: Before they applied the therapeutic tool to
themselves too much and were transformed forever.

No, no, no, before. Because of what happened. The
pressure. And so they started a bunch of what I
consider *(rogue?) organizations maybe. Because there
was a lot of pressure, right? Would you want to deny
anybody this? No. Would I? No. I still felt, though —
I was never kindly disposed toward Kesey’s group
either, the Pranksters or anything. There was something
about them ** when they left their wild ** out and I
still feel this. So that’s what notoriety and media and
all these things do, but also what the drug did and I
kind of felt it was really too bad, and I think Leary
— maybe Alpert was starting to put the little brakes
on that as much as he can under the circumstances, with
the ideas and philosophies and hopes that you are
working with * I think maybe always had before the two,
he wants to kick the ball you know.

R: Yeah, sure. Well I feel that we’re right at the
point of something here where, you’re okay, you have
this professional interest in LSD, you’re doing your
professional work in Santa Cruz as well as San Jose.
You’re living in Los Gatos, you’re going back and
forth. Now I’ve got to get from there to The Barn.

Okay, well you asked me how I got — This is how I got
to Santa Cruz. It had nothing to do with LSD, even
though LSD was going on as another part of my life. But
it wasn’t interfering with my life. In fact it is true,
I did use LSD in my private practice too, very
successfully. I never felt that you just turned on or
whatever. I felt, and I still do, that a lot of
centering oneself and appreciating, not just, “Let’s go
see a movie and see how great it is.” I think a lot of,
you know, actually it’s amazing how little — it could
have been a lot worse. But it also, a lot of the
benefits are not — I mean you can’t just — it’s not
*** you don’t just, hey get a drug and everything is
going to work fine. You are a person before and you are
a person after, and who you are and what you do with,
how you — you pick opportunities, so what you do with
them is more important than the opportunity. Hahaha!

*** There is this thing, you go through the opportunity
and it transforms you. There’s a lot of disappointment
that end up there because ** whatever. Anyway. But it
is true, it was happening. And it wasn’t as bad as I
might have expected myself at that time, you know, like
— I would have been fearful of consequences happening
if you just turn on at a party, say “Hey take some and
see what it does for you.”

R: So how long a time were you commuting to Santa Cruz
before you actually got involved in Santa Cruz and
somehow found out about the Barn or got interested in
getting that space?

The Barn. Well, time elements, that’s my hardest part,
because I don’t think–

R: Well forget the time, just give me the step by step.
When I got there I was just coming to set up a therapy
program on a ward and then go back to Los Gatos. Then
Neal, who was always coming around all the time, asked
me about the Hip Pocket Bookstore. In fact, before it
had opened, when they were thinking of opening it, he
was telling me about the Pranksters and **work and
Kesey and his friends would open up a bookstore and
Peter Demma was the guy who was going to be the manager
***and why don’t you give him a hand? you know,
whatever. He was going to give him a hand **too and
started to do a little clerical work at the Hip Pocket
Bookstore, and I would come around and talk and see
what’s going on and *** and whatever. And then the —
but this was not long, maybe a matter of months after I
started to work in the hospital, months though, maybe
half a year that I would come around the Hip Pocket.

And then the Christian Women for Morality got formed at
a Baptist church in Scotts Valley. And they organized a
group and they started a telephone campaign. It was a
battle campaign, a war plan. There was a group of women
and they would *** call up 85 times a day “When are you
going to take down the nude pictures?” The phone rings
again. “When you going to take down the nude pictures?”
And then 15 minutes later — by this time they were
manning the phone, the replacement goes, *****pictures
** Shit! Honestly, that’s the way it was. I said, “I
cannot do that again,” I told Peter. Not me. You need
some help.

Before that, when I first started to come to the Hip
Pocket bookstore there was in back a cooler where *
(Rhonda?) worked and that was one of the ladies from
the Pranksters, she designed (costumes?) and her
boyfriend were always there and we used to get there
and we used to smoke some marijuana there. So that was
the thing, you know, I’d just go down to the Hip Pocket
Bookstore and we’d go to the cooler and we’d smoke some
grass. And then the Christian Women for Morality
started their campaign.

I don’t remember exactly when these group of poets I
knew from San Francisco who were very active, militant
— the poetry scene was beginning. The poetry scene
was, I know that scene at that time. Gianpalo(?) was
one of them and a guy named Steinberg or * a bunch of
people who were poets and (some of them?) I knew. And I
said, “Free speech! Let’s start a thing at the Hip
Pocket Bookstore.” I got them down to the Hip Pocket
Bookstore to make presentations. There was a piece
about Vietnam, I mean — so I was involved with that a
little bit. Anyway, we thought it said F ** They want
to make a war by telephone. So if you have something to
say, come and say it. We open up. Friday night’s the
Free Speech (night). Anybody has any complaints or
questions or wants to say something, come here and just
say it. And so that’s how the free speech thing started
in the Hip Pocket Bookstore. And they were very
successful.

R: Free Speech evening was a Friday evening and then
you spoke marijuana–

Well we didn’t know ***

R: But that’s pretty close, so–

I hear Eric Norton(?) is opening up a coffee shop in
Santa Cruz. What? Eric Norton? Coffee shop? I knew Eric
Norton from San Francisco. When I first came to San
Francisco and I was hanging around the North Beach,
Eric Norton is the guy who opened up the Hungry Eye
with Enrico Banducci which was one of the well known,
popular comedy places and did very very well. But Eric
North–well I didn’t know *** I already knew about Eric
Norton because those are the years, it was 1956, 1958,
and The Hungry Eye was the name. He started a thing in
the North Beach–a loft, a party loft. He said, “Hey
you guys, you don’t need to pay entertainment just
because you want to come out and hang together and
drink a glass of wine or a bottle of wine. Here. Come
to my place. Use the place. Bring your own. Bring your
own wine, bring your own entertainment, introduce
yourself and just bring a buck at the door just to go
in. That was a new thing then, and a good thing. That
was–Eric Norton was a starter. So I met him then. And
I kept hearing things about him because he moved from
there to Venice and he’s the guy who started actually
all these things that Venice later developed. He was a
starter there. There was nothing in Venice. He started
a coffee shop and poetry, entertainment, music and
whatever, and it started to become a cultural hub. But
that was later. But where I knew him, he started then
just from the loft and he was an interesting person,
you know. He was in Hollywood a little bit, real estate
or whatever, and he was dropping out and he was living
this life and doing all these creative things and
encouraging people to come in. And also it turned out
encouraging other ways. There were some very young
girls, and he got busted for harboring runaways. I
think that’s what made him leave San Francisco but I
didn’t find out any results. But that was in the paper,
so there was his reputation, you know, and that’s the
last I heard of him, I just knew that he moved on to
Venice.

“He’s here in Santa Cruz? Opening ***?” “Oh yeah, there
is this woman who owns or has this place, The Barn, in
Scotts Valley, and she just hired him to start the
coffee shop there.” I said well there is one here in
Santa Cruz, there is * once start something with Eric
Norton in Santa Cruz? I said, well gee, I got to check
that out, you know. So I go down there and I saw Eric
Norton at The Barn and he’s sitting there and he tells
me, oh yeah, I’m using this beautiful big place and all
that. There’s this lady, this wonderful lady, she’s
just a manager in the telephone company but she wants
to do business, she wants to open up a coffee shop, and
his dreams, you know, she hired him *** just to see if
he could make it work or whatever. Had to pay him a
salary, you know, whatever. I said, “Wow, I’ve got to
meet this woman. Who is this woman?” “That’s the mother
of my children.”

R: What’s her name?

(Kathy? Jackie?)